Talk:Axl Rose

Unfitting to put legal issues in a bio

Reviewing old talk pages, it was decided that his personal relationships and such were not part of a bio. I see the story of Kurt Cobain’s death isn’t even in his bio here. I don’t see all the performances listed when Rose et al had guest singers or when he has been a guest singer or invited speaker. I’m not we need this info, but this is about the singer as an entertainer. The personal issues do not belong in his story here. Demsuz (talk) 05:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"This is about the singer as an entertainer. the personal issues do not belong in his story here" You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding on what Wikipedia is and it's scope. And what are you talking about re: Cobain, there's an entire Suicide of Kurt Cobain article and his lead mentions his death too. RF23 (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you look more carefully at Kurt Cobain’s biography. It does not mention how he died and simply calls the note he left a suicide note. No one is discussing his life a tabloid. It’s completely unbiased unlike the way Axl is being dissected here. Demsuz (talk) 06:05, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

It says "On April 8, 1994, he was found dead in the greenhouse of his Seattle home at the age of 27, with police concluding that he had died around three days earlier from a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the head" Nil Einne (talk) 10:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Where is that quote? Under “Death” on Kurt Cobain, the only paragraph about his death is, “On April 8, Cobain's body was discovered at his Lake Washington Boulevard home by an electrician, who had arrived to install a security system. A suicide note was found, addressed to Cobain's childhood imaginary friend Boddah, that stated that Cobain had not "felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music, along with really writing ... for too many years now". Cobain's body had been there for days; the coroner's report estimated he died on April 5, 1994, at the age of 27.” Demsuz (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I read the excerpts from Mick Wall’s book in his own article on Medium and in no where does he say Slash and Axl were arrested nor is the girl’s name mentioned. Walls mentions there’s a rumor the charges were dropped because Axl slept with the mother. I don’t think anyone buys that or knows why the family didn’t pursue the case. In the end, this is an accusation without any evidence. The band had no money to offer a settlement if anyone if thinking along those lines. 2601:589:4400:477:2D78:3D04:A609:7850 (talk) 02:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

They were not arrested; they were charged then went on the run to avoid arrest then charges were dropped due to lack of evidence. This is all in the source. RF23 (talk) 23:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The claim was withdrawn. You are using information from tabloid sources.

Instead of warring editing, explain why you think this belongs in his biography.

Mick Walls is sensationalist and even Jimmy Page called his writing “distorted and inaccurate”. It’s mudding the waters to mix a credible source like Slash’s biography with tabloid fodder and it borders on libelous.

Ask yourself why is it so important to give so much detail when there was no criminal record?

Are you enjoying trying to harm these men’s lives by insisting a 39 year old run in with the law be synonymous with their place in music history?

A biography isn’t a critical essay. Focus on their place in history and not your personal feelings about them Demsuz (talk) Demsuz (talk) 05:43, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Biography:"A biography, or simply bio, is a detailed description of a person's life.", "an account of someone's life written by someone else.", "a written account of another person's life".

Hagiography:"a biography that idealizes its subject.", "idealizing or idolizing biography an account that smacks of hagiography", "a very admiring book about someone or a description of someone that represents the person as perfect or much better than they really are,"

This article is a biography, an account of Mr. Rose's life, including - as the saying goes - "warts and all". Legal troubles, relationship issues, breakups and makeups with band members and partners, awards, the highs, the lows, the bad and the good...all of it. To leave legal issues out of this article, issues that are reported on by multiple reliable sources would not be encyclopedic, would be against Wikipedia's mission, and would turn this biography into a hagiography.

Also, the eay WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is pertinent in this case...the content of individual Wikipedia articles is written and decided upon with editorial consensus on an article by article basis. Just because some type of content might exist or even doesn't exist in another article has little to no bearing on other articles. And this talk page is for discussion of improvements to *this* article. The legal issues should stay. - Shearonink (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

What’s the opposite of a hagiography? In some parts, Axl’s biography is written like a tabloid.

Herein he is assumed to not have a side or get any benefit of the doubt in any of these issues.

Why is an alleged event

-that took place over 39 years ago and 3 years before the band was known to the public-

need a detailed paragraph?

His involvement in throwing a girl out of his studio (at minimum) has no named witnesses yet people were said to be there. A woman, who claimed she was this girl, came forward in 2019 from what I see and at the same time was publicly stating she was destitute on Facebook. That isn’t a judgment. I do question if the man who took her virginity was an adult and if she pursued any other men.

She claims she saw Axl sleeping with another women moments before she was assaulted. Who was that woman? There was no description. Why was a 15 year old allowed to go out at night and choose to be around musicians using drugs and alcohol at night? She was seen before so her parents let her be out at night apparently.

If a lawyer wouldn’t take her case, you have to wonder why. Slash’s book confirmed details and clearly she was humiliated. Is there only evidence there was an assault by speculation?

Kurt Cobain’s biography doesn’t discuss his marital, band issues, legal issues, or lawsuits. Axl’s legal issues, law suits, and accusations should get a separate page. It’s well-documented he was a terribly abused child for a long period. Let’s not abuse him here. Demsuz (talk) 15:09, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Demsuz - From the various responses here and from your own posts here it seems clear to me that you should probably open a formal WP:Requests for comment on this content and consensus from the editorial community regarding Axl Rose's legal issues staying in or being excised from this WP:BLP article can then be established. - Shearonink (talk) 15:30, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. I question why the legal issues and lawsuit sections aren’t condensed and a credible sources were used. My edits were reverted when I tried to. Take a look at the sources used and they are almost all music tabloids.

“Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors.”

The story of a girl claiming abuse in 2019 wasn’t picked up by any “Reliable Sources” here. I see no reason to lump an accusation made in 2019 of a 1985 encounter with a legal issue. The bio says he was arrested multiple times without all the details. Why do we need every detail on an accusation when there was no arrest?

Why aren’t Axl Rose’s abusers being excoriated in the same tone in this biography? There’s a narrative here by some constant editors like RF23 to minimize his activism and charity and to expand his tanglings with the law or estranged parties. Demsuz (talk) 17:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

RF23 Please state your case here. You keep reverting edits without discussion above. This alleged 1985 incident doesn’t belong in the bio. Why hasn’t any investigative reporter investigated these claims especially when the accuser is easily reached? Mick Wall has books to sell and sensationalism sells. I don’t even see how the female who came forward in 2019 has a similar account to any other version especially Wall’s version in his 2017 book. I see nothing that states his interviewed her. If no one can make sense of this story, why is it of interest? What’s your goal here? Demsuz (talk) 23:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t argue with editors who don’t understand what the scope of this site is, or what reliable sources are. There isn’t a point in “stating my case” because you are already ignoring what’s being said and not being civil (stating a veteran editor has "an agenda" isn't helping you). Please educate yourself, the editor who responded below has linked to pages that can help you. RF23 (talk) 20:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I had a veteran editor tell me they agree with me on the bulletin board. I never claimed anyone has “an agenda”, you are not quoting me and I’m not sure where you came up that.

You are referencing Mick Wall’s book. Can you show me the direct quotes from his book? We can see above you misquoted me so please only provide direct quotes.

Let’s discuss how to make the bio better and not what you think of me. Demsuz (talk) 05:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Here’s a helpful response I received asking for help in biographies regarding this page. A retired editor archived it so I’m moving it here so it can seen:

“I think a lot of people come here with a mistaken idea of what an encyclopedia is, and what one is for. an encyclopedia is not the place for excessive detail. Space there a quick reference is designed to give the reader the basic gist of the story without having to read the whole damn story. Their brief summaries, and summarizing --by definition--means cutting out trivial details and boiling everything down to the nitty gritty, focusing on the most significant aspects of the subject. Weight and balance is how we keep most trivia out of celebrity articles. What weight and balance means is we take all the sources that exist about a subject and divide up the info like a pie chart. Things that get the most coverage are the most significant and deserve the most space in the article. The main policy we have to mitigate this sort of thing is WP:NOPV, and in particular WP:Due weight and WP:Balance. I'd suggest reading those policies very carefully. Outside of Wikipedia, "notable" means people are interested in it; that is, it's noteworthy. To avoid confusion between this and Wikipedia's definition, I'll use the synonym "significant" to mean this definition. If something is significant or noteworthy, people will write about it in reliable sources, because that's what they do. I think a lot of people come here with a mistaken idea of what an encyclopedia is, and what one is for. An encyclopedia is not a place for excessive detail. They're quick references designed to give the reader the basic gist of the story without having to read the whole damn story. They're brief summaries, and summarizing --by definition-- means cutting out trivial details and boiling everything down to the nitty gritty, focusing on the most significant aspects of the subject. Weight and balance is how we keep most trivia out of celebrity articles. What weight and balance means is we take all the sources that exist about a subject and divide up the info like a pie chart. Things that get the most coverage are the most significant and deserve the most space in the article. Things that are less significant get less space, and those with the lowest significance doesn't deserve any. It all depends on the amount of public interest in whatever that thing is, which we can measure fairly accurately this way. Balance in addition can refer to how the info is arranged in the article. It's like, if you load all the heavy cargo in the back of the boat it will likely sink, but if you evenly disperse the weight the boat will be better balanced. Similarly, putting all the bad stuff in a section titled "legal issues" is like putting all the heavy stuff in the back of the boat. Better would be to work these things into the timeline of events so it's more balanced throughout the article. Weight and balance are best determined by those who edit the article regularly and are familiar with all the sources, so it's best to take this to the talk page and work it out there. If nothing else, throw down some good arguments for others to read, because once you do that, if you still can't come to a resolution, then you can try our dispute resolution process, such as WP:NPOVN, WP:RFC, or WP:DRN. I hope that helps, and good luck.”Zaereth Hope it’s obvious I moved this quote. Demsuz (talk) 20:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)